And by the way “nope, this geeky little thing would never attract a dime” is a perfectly acceptable answer.
I’m crazy cheap. Keep that in mind.
Had is seen this as what I suspect you’d hit the app store with, I might just spend the buck. If it was free with IAP (for what? Dunno), it’d be a no-brainier. I frankly like this more than cargo bot, all due respect (but I likes my games explodey). If it was more… It depends a lot on the looks, frankly. I was (am!) ready to spend 10 bucks on gratuitous space battles if they ever offer it in the US…
I’d think long and hard about more than a buck or so. Not that it might not be worth more - simply because you’d rather have 100 $1 sales than 15 $2 sales, or 2 $5 sales.
The nice part about kickstarter is you risk little but embarrassment - and the idea of naming bots after big contributors is saucy, I like it!
I think it’s definitely worth getting it to the app store, even free without trading, if only for the bragging rights and "oh yeah, punk, look what i did.
If you go kickstarter, some of the first few hundred bucks should go to artwork - put some starving-but-creative art student in top Raman for a month and get them some credits. If you do it right, servers can be pretty cheap, relatively.
@Mark I think keep your goals small and incremental, and keep going while you’re having fun with it.
If this stuff is fun for you, then why not take your time learning about how to make a website, artwork, etc? And at the same time building your skills, may come to be useful later.
What do you think you’d spend 10-20k on? One alternative to raising/spending money is try to pair up with someone with complementary skills. Everyone here on the forum seems super excited about this project.
Your hosting costs will depend very much on traffic - more traffic will require bigger instances. if you keep the server-side requests lightweight, it’s very possible to pull this off for a few tens of dollars a month, or even free (most providers - heroku, and google apps for sure - have a “free” low level instance that’s actually plenty powerful for many purposes). And if you did something really creative (I liked @Simeon’s suggestion of tweeting!), it may simply be free.
@ruilov is also right about complimentary skills - Server-side programming is what I do. Make a nice clean description of the data you are looking at storing/retrieving, and… well, let’s see what can happen.
@Bortels & @ruilov, many thanks.
I was basing those numbers on my experience from books and comics publishing more than any experience in game publishing. While I do have game credits that go back to the Apple II, TI 99/4 dark ages, most of the cost of cranking out a game in those days was packaging (and that classy seven at a time cassette tape duplicator that I still have). There’s been such a change in the system since then I don’t think any of my experience applies.
However, I have recently tried to revive some of my long out of print books (for example, http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Tower-Mark-Sumner/dp/034540209X ) and for this project I contracted with some artists and designers. My experience was that art elements could quickly boost the cost of a project. Also, while I have done server side coding in both Java and Ruby I… just don’t like it. Over the years I must have written hundreds of client-side apps, but the disconnected nature of web coding bugs me. So, art because I’m not capable, server coding because I’m not willing.
I love the idea of building a team to see this thing through rather than begging for dollars. This has been a great dev community, and if there are people with the interest and skills who could help carry this project over the goal line, I’m all for that approach.
Hi @Mark, yes I think this should make it to the app store. I don’t know whether, as an investment, you would make a mint. But as @ruilov says, it is worth doing as a learning experience. Setting aside hosting or design costs, the main cost will be your time, especially if you do it all yourself. If there are things needed that you could happily entrust to others, then I think you should team up. I’m open to a contribution…
@Mark I really like the idea, and think it may be worth pursuing. I can see that it would however be a lot of work to turn it into something of the quality you’d probably want! 
I’d be interested in helping out if you needed it, although my skills are more coding-based (although I do have some artistic tendencies ) and I don’t know if you have need for another programmer?
I mentioned in your other Battlechips thread that I’d had a similar idea a number of weeks ago, although my thoughts for implementation and the way it played were fairly different. I don’t know if you’d want to have a discussion though and compare notes? It may be that we’d have different end-goals
And finally - if you did have a go at making this into a fully-fledged App Store game, I have to ask: would you be planning to stick with Codea for the full game, or just for prototypes?
4.8 out of 5 stars - not bad! Why don’t you (or Del Rey?) make those available as an ebook? Being an author of an out-of-print book has got to be a bit annoying…
Back to battle chips - keep in mind, I haven’t DONE the below, so I may be talking out of my proverbial keister:
One of the big changes since the olden days is that packaging and distribution are basically zero cost - you pay your $100 a year to Apple, and your 8 bucks for Codea is already spent.
Is advertising in the budget? I suspect the first few apps to come out of Codea will get a nice halo effect from the “designed and built on the ipad” thing, if you do it soon you’ll get some of that.
Server price has also dropped thru the floor - if you’re careful, again, you might be able to get to zero, and even if not, it’s cheap today. The server side programming could be an issue, but one of the big expenses is web client design - and your program itself is that. The backend engine… well, If I’m guessing correctly as to what you would need, it’s an evening to set up. I don’t think you need heavyweight, frankly. (I keep coming back to twitter - It may fill both a server/database role AND an advertising role for you…)
The final real expense (other than your time, which is free, ha!) is art, and the old saying usually holds true - “you get what you pay for”. HAVING SAID THAT - I am the eternal optimist, and I’m reminded of the pitch Steve Jobs made to John Sculley: “Do you want to sell sugared water for the rest of your life? Or do you want to come with me and change the world?” - Battle Chips is just good enough you may find someone who likes to draw robots, and is drawing them anyway, and is looking for immortality (or at least something for the portfolio) - I’m not kidding that for many a starving art student, a couple hundred bucks is THE TREASURE OF SIERRA MADRE, not to mention proof they have the chops.
I’ll bet you could get this in the app store, with reasonable art, a year of prepaid hosting, and your apple app-store developers tattoo (or whatever they do) for $500 and have money left over. The really big expense (programming, and time) you’ve already provided (and are providing) for free.
Will you make a million dollars? no. certainly not. Might you make a few grand? I think that’s very possible, and a fine reward for something you weren’t really doing to make money anyway, right? And who knows, it could take off…
Agree with everything @Bortels has said. We very rarely invest more than our own time into our own apps. Hosting for your game can be free or very cheap to start with (using something like Google App Engine or Amazon). If you get popular then you can scale — and if you’re popular you would likely be able to have your product pay for its own server costs.
You could even take a look at art styles that are more programmer friendly — something like GeoDefense, which is all glowing vector lines and over-the-top particle effects. That can look quite good. I think @John has already shown how to do a glow effect in Codea in another thread.
The best thing about Battle Chips is that it’s not just an idea. It’s a working prototype. You’ll be able to get people interested just by showing them. The fact that you’ve come this far makes it seem much more likely to get finished.
Yes - you should BE so popular that scaling is an issue!
Thanks, all.
I think the obvious action at this point is to just keep plodding. Keep refining, adding, tightening and refactoring to make the core experience as enjoyable as it can be. I’m actually quite fond of the procedural graphics on the coding screen and don’t think I’ll make a lot of changes to the design there. However, the bots themselves, bot design screen, and main screen/arena all need an overhaul. I’m thinking that even for the plain bot on bot action, I need to make the area larger and more varied, which will obviously require changes in the “chips” to support remote complex behavior.
On the design side, I’m changing it so that each bot has a budget, and you can choose from different level components in treads, lasers, radar, and armor to optimize design with code.
The biggest sections where I’m just at a loss are these:
-
It’s clear I need sensors that return numerical values. Not just “yes, you’ve hit a wall” but “how far to the nearest wall or bot?” or “what is my Y position?” But how do I fit that into the drag and drop chip code layout? (Oh wait, as I write this, I think I have an idea… but it may not work so please send along anything you can think of).
-
Saving / Loading. This is the big one. I like the “trading card” or “bot stamp” idea that would allow bots to be traded as images, but honestly have no idea how it could be implemented at the moment. I, as the developer, can access Dropbox or the photo library, but I can’t see how to expose that to the user. That’s why I’ve been assuming that http is where I’ll end up… but I still have really no good concept for what a save / load interface would look like that doesn’t require the user to type in a string.
If anyone has an idea on either of these, I’d very much appreciate it.
Thanks again for the good advice.
Oh, and @Bortels, I don’t have an out of print book. I have 34 out of print books. Prolific, but poor, that’s me.
Gah… 34??? Dude, ebooks. Get that long tail - out of print isnt paying the bills! Lean on your publisher a bit. (I’m an avid sci-fi and fantasy reader, not as much now because less free time, but with that many, I must have read something you did… I’m just bad at names. )
Sensors - maybe like “look for bot”, and the argument is the goto? So you could cascade them. What you really need is variables, but how to fit them in the chip metaphor is a puzzlement. Sub-chips?
I am wondering how compactly we could encode a bot - I still like the twitter idea.
I’m thinking automatic global leader board, by the way. When you battle, it posts results, and you can see top ranking bots. Just sayin.
Thinking…
The game is more interesting if dead-simple strategies (“spin-and-fire”) are non-optimal.
We’ve talked about some sort of energy or time budget to slow rate of fire.
I want a mirror. You could set the direction. When you scanned and hit a mirror, you’d see yourself, twice as far :-). It would reflect lasers, of course.
I’m thinking of two sets of sensors. One would be a simple sensor, such as the current version. “Did I bump into a wall? GOTO X” The second would be a two parter. “Did radar return a wall <= X distance, if so GOTO Y.” The second class of sensors would require the input of two numbers. Alternately, each type of sensor could also populate a variable, and I could have a second chip that was a variable interragator – essentially a generic If-Then-Goto.
Either thing would work, but I don’t like it.
I’m wondering if it would be too clumsy to have variable tags into which you could push a value, then test tags that could be interrogated T/F against that value.
Something like:
1 >> A 6
2 Forward
3 Radar
4 ? A 6
5 Goto 2
6 ...
This would set the A variable to 6, move forward, fire the radar, then query A.against the return of radar. In other words, “keep moving forward until you are within 6 of a wall.”. Does this make sense? Would it work better to have per-defined variable like “distance” that would always return the last radar result regardless of order of execution?
I completely agree that I need to move the results to make simple programs like Smart Spinner much less effective.
I’m thinking back to 6502 programming - you had like 3 registers (and a stack), and you dealt with it, and somehow things still worked. The more I think about it, the more I think basic assembly is the closest analog here.
Here’s what I’m thinking:
1 radar 0
2 if radar.dist < 6? goto 5
3 forward 1
4 goto 1
5 gosub whatever
So, the idea is radar has a direction (0 degrees), and there are a few something.variables that give you info about the world - radar.dist is the last radar distance returned, for example. radar.target might be “wall” or “bot”, etc.
The if chip would take a simple expression - probably just “variable or constant”, “> < = >= <= == !”, “variable or constant”. if true, it executes the goto.
heh - sin() and cos() could be IAP. LOL.
I’d have code up today, but my emails to posterous seem to be falling in a well.
Stuck a new version in Posterous for anyone who wants to give feedback on the new style and layout, including the design studio.
http://devilstower.posterous.com/battle-chips-063
Next, I’ll continue implementing the effect of parts selection and start adding the new challenges with robo-skeet and maze race coming up first.
The following notes are just that - notes. I’m a big fan, or I wouldn’t bother commenting, ask TLL! I think this is already “pretty damn cool”, and has the potential for “awesome”, or, dare I say it, “teh ubar”.
When the tourney ended, a big grey box came up (for results? But no results) and the combat continued behind it.
Suggestion - tapping on the countdown timer should set it to 0 (ie. end the current battle). Also consider bumping up the timer when a non-dead bot takes damage - sometimes they take a while to find each other, and it’s a shame to end the battle just as they make contact.
I’m sad to see the “broken bot” graphic go away, but I suspect that’s temporary for the new graphics - I still think that a better dead/damage would add flavor, maybe some glowey particles coming off when they’re hit, or a tron-like de-rez when they die.
There’s a part of me that wants radar to take a direction - or maybe simply add “radar left”, right, and forward chips. The forward-turn-scan-turn loop is ugly - forward-rightscan would be faster and prettier, and advantage scanning (assuming fire is still forward only), which seem good.
Some way to turn off the noise (especially for scan?) please.
Consider making the tourney timer a progress bar.
@Bortels, many thanks for taking a look. I really like the thought of having dedicated “radar left,” “laser right,” etc. commands. I’d been thinking of allowing the body to turn independent of the base, but I think this is a cleaner approach. I’m adding slider trays to the chip collection to accommodate the expanded selection.
The countdown timer tap is a perfect solution. I also like the idea of time being extended when something happens.
Yeah, I need to redo the damage graphic to work with all the different pieces.
The latest…
http://devilstower.posterous.com/battle-chips-23may12
Has @Bortels’ radar right & radar left chip. Any blank socket now restarts the “program” so you don’t have to drag “GOTO 1” everywhere. The new chip tray has plenty of room for expansion (so send in your ideas).
The little skeet shoot is kind of fun. I think my record is 268 with a revised Killbot 1000.
Lots of stuff messed up here, but it represents a heavy rewrite.